Mr. Lippert: Mr. S. Jaishankar, Minister of External Affairs to India. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Good to be here.
Mr. Lippert: I really appreciate it. Let me start out by just the fact that you're in here in Denmark.
I want to ask you, because I'm curious to it, why is Denmark a relevant country for you as India's Minister of External Affairs to visit? What role do you see Denmark play in the world?
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Well, I think it has different dimensions of relevance, some a little more immediate, some more permanent. Our own relations are very good. It's a country with which we have a very trusting, very strong, very open relationship.
I think on many big issues, we think similarly. It's a very important partner for us when it comes to sustainability and for green development. In fact, we have something called a Green Strategic Partnership with Denmark.
It's also a very influential voice in the European Union. It'll hold the next presidency of the European Union. And it's right now in the Security Council as a member.
So it has a global influence and a global, I would say, role as well.
Mr. Lippert: So there is a reason, not just for the fact that there's six million people, which is not very many. No, no.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: I like the six million people. Always good to be here. And I must tell you, I have great counterparts.
I like working with Foreign Minister Rasmussen, and I always enjoy meeting Prime Minister Frederiksen as well.
Mr. Lippert: Good. Well, now you are here, so you better make the best of it, I suppose.
But in Europe, we're going to talk about the new world order and the Indian perspective on what's on our minds as well. In Europe, we see the old world order falling apart, no doubt about it. And the world is becoming an uncertain to many people in Denmark and I think in Europe, an uncertain and perhaps even frightening place.How does the current changes that are going on, how do they look from your perspective?
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Look, I think falling apart is a very strong word. And certainly, this is a period of very big changes. I totally get that.
How we react and change can be very unsettling. To an extent, how Europe is reacting and how India is reacting is different. And there are a number of reasons for it.
Many of the changes pertain to an alliance structure, alliance culture, which has given a lot of comfort to Europe. We don't have that alliance. We don't, therefore, have the mindset which came with that.
So when we look at this part of the changes or this part of the order, this impacts Europe much more than it impacts India.
Mr. Lippert: NATO falling apart – or whatever you...
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: No, no, NATO changing. Again, I think falling apart is a very overdramatic word.
The second is, in a way, again, look, we have historically tended to fend for ourselves. That's been our preferred political positioning, strategic positioning. So we've always taken the world as it is, tried to navigate it to the best advantage, assess the risks often for ourselves.
So maybe we face this era of uncertainty and volatility with a greater degree of equanimity because, again, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying everything is smooth and everybody can handle everything. But I think we come at it somewhat differently.
I can understand, you know, today the sentiments that I hear in Europe because, you know, what is now happening transatlantic or even within Europe is one aspect of it. We know that the Ukraine war, which started three years ago, was another aspect of it. We know there are economic challenges that Europe is also going to be looking at.
You know, how do you deal with sort of the issues of market access, of technology, etc., trusted technology? How do you deal with the digital age? So there are definitely uncertainties. But here's my takeaway, and that's what's brought me to Denmark as well. The more uncertain the world is, the more unstable the world is, we need countries and we need regions and we need groupings who will add to stability, who will work with each other, who give each other more strength and confidence to do that.
And that's why I'm here.
Mr. Lippert: So some alliance, but we were talking about the alliances that we already have are sort of, you say, they're not falling apart, but they are somehow changing or crumbling a bit or whatever that might be. I just want to reach out, touch upon what you mentioned here, because you talked about the war in Ukraine.
And I think to people in Denmark, that is one of the most threatening examples of this new world order. The fact that Russia has invaded another country. You've called for peace negotiations, but differently from Europe, you have not cut ties to Russia.
You've bought oil from Russia.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Well, Europe continues to buy energy as well. I mean, just so that we are-
Mr. Lippert: But why do you approach this matter differently? I understand Ukraine is not in your immediate geography, but still, it's a huge country invading a small country. Does that give you any sort of concern that this is not what's supposed to be going on?
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: It certainly is a source of concern, not just for India, but for the entire world, that you have a conflict. You have a conflict now into three years and going, which has impacted the entire world in different ways.
It has had second order, third order consequences. It has messed up the global energy situation. The food, you know, the entire food security of many countries has become a problem, fertilizer has become a problem.
So I think there's no question that it is something which matters to the world. You raise the issue of, you know, one country does something to another country.
Look, here, obviously, at one level, everybody takes note of it, but everybody also looks at it from their particular historical experience. Now, we've had, I mean, if you were to look at the last, after the Second World War, we are one of the countries which actually have had, you know, a violation of our sovereignty. We still have a violation of our sovereignty by our neighbours.
Mr. Lippert: Pakistan and Kashmir region.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: And China.
Mr. Lippert: And China.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: And the fact is, Europe was very detached about it. In fact, at times, Europe was very cynical about it. Now, I'm not saying that, you know, this leads to that.
I'm just saying there's the reality of the world. The reality of the world is that even when you are concerned, those who are closer to the problem, those whose interests are deeper, will have a much more passionate, emotional position. Those who are, you know, I would get passionate about something close up to me, which Europe may wonder why are the Indians so agitated, or not Indians, but somebody else as well.
So I think that's natural. But in diplomacy, there cannot be an expectation that other nations will share, will have identical responses. Diplomacy is about finding common ground.
That, look, let's agree on something basic and practical. And right now, from the very start, we've been saying something which we feel we are now vindicated three years onwards. We always said you're not going to get a solution to the Ukraine conflict from the battleground, from the battlefield.
We also said you're going to have to talk. There's got to be dialogue. There's got to be diplomacy.
And there's got to be direct contact. Now, there was a time, you remember, there were these conferences which were going on about gathering countries. Now, we attended those conferences.
But we always said, look, what's the point of gathering everybody else and not having Russia in the room?
Mr. Lippert: Can I ask you then, because you mentioned an interesting word here, and I think that, to be fair, this is a reality, whether we in Europe recognize that or not, the word cynicism, that there has been a sort of degree of perhaps even cynicism when it comes to regional conflicts around the world that has not affected directly Europe.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Use the word realism.
Mr. Lippert: Realism, cynicism, but the fact that you're capable of looking at other interests than just the fact that, for instance, that a country has been invaded.
Well, is there interest to us that differs from the values perspective? But what I want to ask you is, do you see a world coming now in the years ahead where that kind of, and you may use another word than cynicism, realism, where that kind of cynicism - my word - will sort of play a larger role in how we intervene with each other, how we are with each other as countries?
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: You know, I want this to come out the right way. When you started by saying the world is falling apart, I think part of the reason why you have that mindset is because maybe there is inadequate realism, that what in the case of Europe, to be very honest, you had found a sweet spot where largely security concerns were taken care of through the American relationship. The energy demands were taken care of through the Russian relationship, and the economic trade was taken care of through the China relationship.
So Europe was in a perfect position. Now, what has happened in the last four or five years is each of these aspects have come under stress, to put it mildly.
Mr. Lippert: To put it mildly, yes.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Yes. So now this, to my mind, calls for two kinds of responses. But obviously, this is something Europe has to decide.
On the one hand, obviously, Europe has to be strategically more self-reliant or more autonomous or be much more multipolar in its thinking.
Mr. Lippert: Stronger militaries.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Not just stronger military.
In fact, I have a view that it should be more economic relationship, and I have a self-interest there. But also, I think Europe has to be more realist about the world, that Europe could take positions. You know, the whole idea of we'll change the world through trade.
We will influence them through negotiations. They will become more like us. Now, that, to some extent, you could afford that kind of thinking, because somebody was dealing with the nasty stuff, and you didn't have to get your hands dirty.
Now, today, that era is behind you. So, you know, in that sense, why I use the word realist, I do think, you know, Europe is not just entering a multipolar world. Europe is also entering an era of greater realism, where it will require, you know, decisions and resources and sacrifices and, in a sense, an understanding of the world, which perhaps you could afford not to have earlier.
Mr. Lippert: Do you think that this is, and this is obviously a conversation that we're having in Europe, and Denmark as well, that the whole idea that, and you also say that, that Europe was somehow a continent that was sort of a beacon to the rest of the world, and we had this self-confidence that if people just got to learn the ways of Europe, then they would, you know, slowly become European-like countries. There is sort of an arrogance to that, I can imagine, when you look at it from outside Europe.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: I'm not saying it.
Mr. Lippert: I can read from your body language, I can't, I'm just joking, but still, that Europe has to learn, in your opinion, that we are not going to make the rest of the world look like us.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Yes, but I do think that there are many things where Europe can bring value, Europe can, you know, contribute to the larger direction and evolution of the world. And I think those things one should pick up.
Again, see, the reason why I caution against sort of a despondency is what then happens is even the capabilities, the capacities, the good things which can be done, they then get put on the side, you know. It is like, oh my God, everything is falling apart. What do I do? The world, you know, the world is such a difficult place.
Nobody knows how to handle it. You don't want to go there. I think there has to be, in a sense, a much more clinical view about, you know, the opportunities, the challenges, the predicaments, the situations, the solutions.
And I say this, you know, as someone who's lived in Europe and worked with Europe for many, many years. I think there is a lot that Europe can do for the world and with the world. And we are a very good example.
I mean, when I come here to Denmark, to me, when I talk about a green strategic partnership or if I say, OK, this is a part of the world where, you know, many of the major global challenges can be talked about and discussed and worked upon. So for us, I mean, right now, one of my biggest objectives in Europe is to accelerate the free trade agreement. And I look at the free trade agreement not just as a business deal.
I mean, to me, it's a much deeper connect between Europe and India and a connect which is not without its strategic implications and overtones. So Europe has value. Europe is a good partner.
It's our largest economic partner. It's a very important political partner. It's increasingly a security partner.I mean, many of our key security relationships are with individual European countries.
Mr. Lippert: You talk about free trade. And obviously, that is one of the big issues, not just in Europe, but across the world because of the new President in the United States.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: I noticed.
Mr. Lippert: You noticed that President Trump is now in the White House.
I just want to ask you a very basic question. The fact that the President of the United States is now Donald Trump, does that make the world – and I understand why you could dismiss this question, but try to follow - does that make the world a better or worse place?
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Look, you know, that's your way of looking at it.
My way of answering it would be that President Donald Trump is a product of his times, that, you know, he didn't come out of the blue. His success in politics is because he resonated with a certain situation in American society. And that situation, to a large degree, is an outcome of the present model of globalization, where there is a sense of job loss.
There is a sense of stagnating quality of life. There is a sense in America that the way America engages the world is no longer to the benefit of America.
Mr. Lippert: Do you agree with that?
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: No. It doesn't matter whether I agree with it. Americans agree with it.
Mr. Lippert: But from an objective perspective, is that true?
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: But I can see the Americans thinking that, you know.
So, the point is—and some of it, frankly, from our perspective - I mean, we do see today an overconcentration of manufacturing. We do see today the international economy impacted.
You know, the rules of trade are impacted by subsidies and state support. And, you know, the reality is there for all of us to see. You know, it's not just in America that sectors have been wiped out and jobs have been lost.
It's happened in my country as well. And I can tell you the very strong feelings about it. So, you know, when you look at President Donald Trump, I think we have to understand that he is a product of a certain—you know, there's 20, 30 years of what happened in the world, which actually has led to the situation that we have today.
So, I think if one has to deal with this, which is what I have to do in my responsibility, you address the issues and the underlying factors and the larger, you know, larger framework, rather than, you know, fixate it on a person and a decision and a particular problem. I mean, that's the way I would respond to it.
Mr. Lippert: You've—just a little less than two weeks ago, President Trump intervened or played a role in the conflict that India has with Pakistan and has since 1948, I think.
And he says that—he said on his own social media platform that he brokered a peace deal. I've heard voices, and you're smiling just a bit. I hear that as a voice as well, that that might not be the whole story.
But my point is, because as I see it, President Trump is going to the world trying to make peace. That's what he's saying. That's his ambition.
Do you agree that his approach, which is perhaps more cynical, which is more transactional, does bring more peace with it than the more ideologically or ideal-based approach that has been for some years now?
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Well, first of all, let me—you know, I like this telepathic interview where I just have to smile, and you pick up on it. So, about where—you know, our part of the world was concerned, because, again, when we look at big global challenges, I think I would put terrorism right up there as one of the key challenges. It will affect the entire world.
And we've had to grapple with a very serious terrorist attack in April. And what followed was a consequence of that, because the terrorists were based in a neighbouring country and, you know, were operating with impunity and with a high degree of state protection and support. So, we had the conflict for a few days that you spoke about.
Now, we resolved that conflict for the moment in its particular military form through agreement and understanding for a cessation of firing and military action. And this was something that we negotiated directly between the militaries of the two countries. The trigger for it was that, after we had had fighting for a few days, we hit them very hard on a particular morning, the morning of the 10th, to be precise.
And that caused the Pakistanis to say, OK, you know, we're prepared to stop the firing and, you know, reach an understanding about how to deal with it. So, I just want to, you know, get that part of it across to you. But as a general proposition, I think right now, you know, there's a conflict going on in Ukraine, as I said, into its fourth year.
You have a very, you know, serious situation, again, a lot of bloodshed in the Middle East. Then there are other aspects to it, Yemen, et cetera, et cetera. So, if you have, I think, a world leader who advocates, you know, conflict resolution and settlement, as a broad principle, obviously, that is to be welcomed.
Now, people can have views about, you know, what's the best course, what should be negotiated, who should negotiate it. That's a different issue. But I think if one steps back and looks at the world in the last five years, let us say, it's a very difficult world.
And I, you know, the ravages of the COVID, the long term effects, what it has done to societies in many countries. And top of it, then, multiple conflicts. I mean, and each of these conflicts—I spoke about how Ukraine has affected food, fuel and fertilizer.
Look at the Middle East. I mean, it has completely messed up shipping and, you know, the maritime traffic between Asia and Europe. And that actually has very serious economic and job implications for people.
So, we need, you know, we need today an effort, ideally collective, but, you know, we know realistically that it doesn't work that way. Different countries need to find ways of, you know, bringing down the temperature, getting people to talk, encouraging people to talk. And we believe that is best done in situations where people talk to each other directly.
Mr. Lippert: So, because obviously everybody would, I suppose, most people would agree that we need to talk together and we need to listen to each other. We need to settle the conflicts that are killing people in various regions, as you pointed out. What I'm also trying to look at is when, from a European perspective at least, when I think many Europeans and perhaps even European governments look at the current American president saying that kind of— and you may not like that word, but the kind of cynicism or realism, whatever you want to call it, is somehow dangerous.
That engaging with countries that you do not share values with to the degree that you don't have one-to-one the same values, but still that there is some sort of respect for human rights or democratic aspirations or whatever that might be. That that kind of cynicism is too much. It's not helping.
So, what I'm asking you is that are you saying that, well, put that aside a bit and look at it. It is really doing a progress. It is helping.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Well, this time, the reason you see me smiling is I am thinking as a country, a democracy, who were invaded by a military dictatorship to my west, which was supported for multiple decades by European countries, Western bloc as a whole. So, I reflect on it. Again, purpose of that is not to say bad things happen to us and that therefore justifies it happening elsewhere.
But to say that, look, in some ways, that's why I use the word realism. Countries or groupings cannot say that we will only do business with people who are like us. You know, if that is the case, why is Europe even present in many parts of Asia? Surely the places where Europe has the most business are not societies and polities which are similar to Europe.
But Europe has no problem doing that. You know, so often the very values which are so important to you closer to home - and I understand that - apparently don't matter, or matter less the farther you leave your shores and go out. So the standards applied to doing business or engaging other countries in Asia is different from or I could argue in Africa is different from what you would yourself apply in your close proximity. So, which is why, you know, I'm not saying value.
I do appreciate values to matter because all of us, if we have a belief and a way of, you know, of thinking and behaving at home, it's a natural human trait to want to do it abroad, you know. So I would relate, say, to you as a person from a democratic polity in a way in which I would not to someone who's not from a democratic society. You would intuitively understand, let us say, the pluralism or the diversity of our views.
The fact that in many cases I would say, you know, we can't do this because that's not allowed. Or, you know, the parliament has to decide or the, you know, there are laws or rules. So our instinctive responses and thought processes, the algorithms would be very different and we would relate to each other.
But I would say, again, I come back to that point, therefore, that some of the changes that you're, you know, await, one part of what Europe is going through is I know you're in the middle or you started a big rearming program. OK, there's a big security emphasis. I know that we had the European commissioners, over 21 of them, led by President von der Leyen.
And we know that now there's a much greater desire to engage with India and do more, do the free trade agreement. But I think one other dimension of it is really to understand the world with all its shortcomings, with all its differences, with the fact that many parts of the world think and behave and believe differently from you and find common ground. That you cannot have a view, I will only work with people who are exactly like me or agree with me.
We have to work with people who sometimes we don't entirely agree with. That's why people like me have this job.
Mr. Lippert: Mr. Jaishankar, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be here and on the program and give us your perspective and India's perspective on the new world order that we're all so concerned about and thinking about.
So thank you very much for that. Appreciate it.
Dr. S. Jaishankar, External Affairs Minister of India: Great pleasure.