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'India deserves appreciation for its actions against terror' - Subrahmanyam Jaishankar
Indian Foreign Minister Subrahmanyam Jaishankar was in the Netherlands this week in the aftermath of the military confrontation with Pakistan. To talk about economic cooperation, but especially to seek support for the fight against terrorism in Kashmir.
‘Let’s not pretend that Pakistan is not involved.’
A ceasefire is a temporary solution. What does the path to a sustainable solution to the conflict with Pakistan look like?
‘We want a definitive end to terrorism. Our message is therefore: yes, the ceasefire has put an end to military actions against each other for now, but if the terrorist attacks from Pakistan continue, there will be consequences. The Pakistanis must understand that very well.’
It was actually Prime Minister Modi who was supposed to be in the Netherlands this week to strengthen Indian-Dutch ties. However, due to the escalating conflict between India and Pakistan, he cancelled his state visit. Jaishankar took his place, to prepare Modi's visit later this year. Some bilateral issues will also have to be ironed out, such as the Dutch arms supplies to Pakistan, about which Minister of Defence Ruben Brekelmans was already addressed in Delhi in March by his Indian counterpart Rajnath Singh.
You previously called Pakistan an epicentre of terrorism. You thereby suggest that the terrorist groups active in Pakistan receive support from the Pakistani state.
'I am not suggesting that, I am stating that. Suppose that there were large military centres in the middle of a city like Amsterdam where tens of thousands of people gathered for military training, would you say that your government knows nothing about that? Of course not.
'We should not go along with the narrative that Pakistan does not know what is going on. The most notorious terrorists on the United Nations (UN) sanctions list are all in Pakistan. They operate in the big cities, in broad daylight. Their addresses are known. Their activities are known. Their mutual contacts are known. So let's not pretend that Pakistan is not involved. The state is involved. The army is up to its neck in it.'
You could also say that terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir is partly the result of the dispute over the entire Kashmir region, which is divided into Pakistani, Indian and Chinese parts. Shouldn't that dispute be resolved first in order to be able to combat terrorism?
'No, for us terrorism is an independent, completely unacceptable international crime that should not be condoned or justified.
'The terrorists targeted the vibrant tourism industry in Jammu and Kashmir with their attack. So they are prepared to destroy things in Kashmir for their own, very limited, selfish purposes. They also deliberately gave the attack a very religious tint (Hindu versus Muslim, ed.). The world should not accept such practices.
‘As for Jammu and Kashmir, it is a historical fact that it joined India when India and Pakistan separated in 1947. Our position is that the illegal occupiers should return their illegally occupied parts to the rightful owner. And that is us.’
Can the international community mediate in the conflict over the status of Kashmir?
‘No, it is a bilateral issue between the countries involved.’
So India is not going to accept Trump's offer to help with this?
'As I said, this is something we will do together with Pakistan.'
In addition to the Kashmir issue, Minister Jaishankar held discussions during his visit on closer economic and technological cooperation between India and the Netherlands. Beyond the traditional bilateral focus areas such as hydraulic engineering, agriculture and pharmaceuticals, India is now mainly interested in sectors such as semiconductors and sustainable energy, especially green hydrogen.
Jaishankar also wants to gain support from the Schoof cabinet to accelerate the negotiations on the free trade agreement that India hopes to conclude with the European Union by the end of this year. The Netherlands is an important country for India.
'After Germany, you are India's largest trading partner within the European Union and the fourth largest investor in India worldwide', says Jaishankar, who has been visiting the Netherlands for more than thirty years due to family ties.
Western companies always complain that India shields its own markets, such as agriculture, too much. Will the new trade agreements with the EU and the US change anything?
'Europe is also shielding its own markets, even more than we are. I am not making sweeping statements about things that are still under negotiation. But to reach a trade agreement, you have to understand the realities of each other's societies. We are a country of small farmers with small plots of land. People have at most a few cattle. We do not have a history of subsidized agriculture, like you do. If small farmers from India had to compete with large, commercial, subsidized European farmers, that would be unfair.'
Does India have the ambition to take China's place as the world's factory?
'Our hope is indeed that the manufacturing of products in India will grow and that we will be more integrated into global production chains. New technology can be an entry point. So our interests in market access cover a much broader spectrum of modern products, such as electronic hardware, chemicals or all kinds of pharmaceuticals.'
In the world order as it existed until recently, economic power also brought with it political responsibility. Does India, as a new superpower, see a leading role for itself on the world stage?
'Certainly, but our geopolitical tradition, as a post-colonial society in Asia, is different from that of the West. We have positions and we propagate them, but we also want to respect other people's sensitivities and sovereignty. That is different from the Western tradition, in which you impose your positions on other countries.'
Does India already have the political influence it should have? India is the largest country in the world in terms of population, but is not yet a permanent member of the UN Security Council, for example.
'That permanent seat on the Security Council is indeed one of our goals. We believe that if the much-needed reform of the UN and the Security Council finally comes about, we will receive a lot of support for our claim.
'Many international initiatives have come from India in recent years. We understand what our position entails. We are now the fourth largest economy in the world, we have just overtaken Japan. And we know that that comes with responsibilities. We are ready.'
Can India also play a mediating role in ending the Russian war against Ukraine? Or do you not dare to do so because of your historical ties with Russia?
'India has a position that many countries in the Global South probably share. We strive for a peaceful solution to this conflict. If we can do something about it, we are open to it. But of course this depends on the parties involved.'
Western countries want to force Russia to the negotiating table with more economic sanctions. Why has India still not imposed sanctions on Russia?
'That sanction culture is a very Western way of maintaining international relations. We do not do national sanctions.'
And condemning a conflict internationally? A country like South Africa, which also has a colonial history, does this in the conflict in Gaza. Can't India do something like that too?
'I conduct a foreign policy that suits our national character and our national interests. Following your logic, I can also say: why doesn't Europe behave more like us? That would be a good idea
